While they have yet to see the table... the only other sizable collection I have with a complete 3rd Edition army list right now are my Abyssals. My collection is currently:
1x Horde of Molochs
2x Regiments of Flamebearers
1x Regiment of Succubi
1x Regiment of Abyssal Guard
3x Troops of Abyssal Guard
2x Regiments of Imps
2x Hordes of Imps
1x Winged Archfiend
1x Wingless Archfiend
1x Abyssal Champion
2x Efreet
Overall, my Abyssals collection decreased around 5%; a couple hundred points. No units were retired/invalidated in the Edition change, but the overal collection has been hamstrung a bit by the changes to unlocks and the increase in irregular units with Third Edition.
Fortunately, I missed the double-whammy that hit the seemingly ever-present Tortured Souls. Third Edition turned them Irregular, turning them from unlocking units into something that needs unlocks. This will confound many competitive Abyssal armies I'm sure. But I think it's a good call. They were an interesting unit, but unique among the Abyssals list (being a shambling, life-leecher), so I think this change makes sense.
With the changes, I only have 6 Troops slots, and now 9 troops that want them. Additionally, I've got 5 Heroes fighting over 3 slots. (Looking at the chart on p. 41, I thought you could double up. On a re-read, the Large and Monstrous Hordes give you two hero/monster/titan/war machine slots, but you can't repeat a choice.)
Flamebearers
Flamebearers are now irregular, so my two regiments now need something to unlock them, rather than unlocking things themselves. Bummer! As stated in the last few posts, Mantic has been making more units irregular, I believe in an attempt to better shape the particular army meta o where they want it to be, for either balance or fluff reasons. That's fine, and it's a slick way to do it, but it does pull the rug out from some builds. Oh well. Part of a new edition I guess.
In Third, Flamebearers gain the Steady Aim special, removing the penalty for moving and shooting. That's awesome! They lost a point of Nerve and got a price hike, which is less great. Still, they look like a potent unit to toss around some supporting Firebolts.
Molochs
The mighty Molochs lost their innate Brutal, and got a slight points increase too, but overall gained a lot. Their lower Nerve value was boosted up, they hit on 3's instead of 4's, and now have Speed 6 instead of Speed 5. Nice improvements all around. Still, they only unlock 2 troops now, so the collection is still underwater.
Their upgrades are also interesting. For 20 points, I can give the Horde a Despoiler Champion (a new character) to lead the unit, granting Fearless and Brutal. While Fearless is always welcome on a unit, the Molochs already have Fury, letting them counter-charge even when Wavered, making it just a bit less attractive. Brutal is nice, but not a must-have for me. With 18 attacks now hitting on 3's with CS2, the Molochs are going to do some damage. If's a neat upgrade, but I will likely skip it for now.
In Second Edition, the Abyssals had Regeneration as their army special rule. It's still there, and now they have an upgrade to it. For a price, you can take a Sacrificial Imp to reroll failed Regen rolls for a turn. It's a pretty cheap upgrade, and I will likely take one on my Molochs here, but I'm so-so on buying it for any other units currently.
Imps
The imps are still little furious, vicious swarms. The Regiments decreased in cost; their Hordes increased. Their Nerve decreased by 1 in Third Edition. My list will likely prioritize the Hordes.
Succubi
The Succubi got a nice points decrease, and gained Fury, Stealthy, and Ensnare. Awesome! Each choice did lose attacks though, but that's ok by me. Kicking out double the normal attacks for their unit size seemed a bit much.
Abyssal Guard
The Abyssal Guard gained Fearless, which is a welcome little bonus. Since they won't be wavered.. the Sacrificial Imp could be a good investment on Regiments. We'll see. My minis are Bloodletter models, so I'm swapping out shields for the two-handed weapons.
Given my lack of unlockers... I may combine two troops into a Regiment. Bloodletters are notorious for being difficult to rank up though, so rebasing may be required.
Heroes
Both my big boys are looking great. They've gotten some changes (no Thunderous Charge, and swapping in the fluffier Fireball in for Lightning Bolt), but are still looking quite strong. The Abyssal Fiend in particular looks great to me; hard to argue with an inspiring beatstick for under 200 points.
The Efreet has been changed... basically with every Clash of Kings update. With Third Edition, it's back to it's basic self, losing Fury and Pathfinder is a small hero just around to chuck Fireball. Fireball 16 seems like a good spot, and it's received a small points decrease, and 115 points seems like a nice spot for it. Fireball is still Fireball, lacking any Piercing and taking a hit on hit rolls against targets that are in cover or Stealthy. Early game, they can clear chaff, and if you can keep them alive until the late game, they should be able, through weight of dice, to get the last few points of damage in to finish off enemy units. We'll see.
The Abyssal Champion looks to have a lot of options, being able to grab Wings or Lighting Bolt. Since he is Mighty, the Champion could potentially fly up to disorder or roadblock a unit, or hang back tossing a few Bolts to weaken up enemy units before combat.
...The Future!
Gargoyles are still a thing, and still look very strong. Who doesn't want flying regenerating chaff? I think I may cave and buy a box (or two) at some point. They're just too iconic of an Abyssals unit not to have some in this army... but this army now needs unlocks, and they would just exacerbate the issue right now.. plus, I'm really trying to hold off on spending money on minis these days.
I already have a Regiment's worth of Lower Abyssals who just need shields, and I've also already picked up some models (on sale!) to use as regiment of Abyssal Horsemen. They'll need some converting, but that should be doable over the winter, and they should be ready to paint up come springtime. Those will help me out a bit, and we'll see what else transpires for this army.
Sunday, November 17, 2019
Friday, November 15, 2019
3rd Edition: Thoughts on Ogres
My Ogre collection was cobbled together from the Chaos Ogres I had been running back in the day; they loyally followed all my GW Chaos stuff over into Kings of War, where the Berserkers have had (I think) one battle cameo. While they're not much of a force on their own... the Ogres are one of the only armies I have that are in the new main rule book, so I might as talk a bit about them.
Irregular Units
More units are Irregular in Third; it seems to be Mantic's non-invasive way to try and guide the army metas a bit. A lot of ranged units received this status in Third, along with some unique but powerful units that were showing up in a lot of lists, like the Abyssal's Tortured Souls or the Varangur Fallen, or the Undead Wights (for me at least, not sure how popular they were elsewhere). The former "must-have" allied unit of Ogre Shooters is now similarly afflicted. My collection is not impacted.
List Building & Unlocks
List building has also changed a bit in Third, and is now a bit more complex. Gone is the slick, simple Regiment/Horde arrangement; it's gotten more granular, with the Large Infantry/Cavalry getting tweaked. Their Regiments no longer unlock things; only Hordes and Legions do.
So with the Large-bodied choices, Troop unlocks are a far harder to get. Hordes only get you two (Legions get you four). However, with each, you get TWO unlocks for any combination of Hero, Monster, Titan, or War Engine, where the more "regular" unlocking cavalry/infantry/heavy infantry units are limited to one (or one of each, with a Horde).
It's a weird arrangement.
Part of me just doesn't like it. A big personal selling point for me with Kings of War is the rules. There were balance concerns (as they are in any game), but the rules were always easy to read and understand. Now, unlocks are not as simple or straightforward as they were previously, and unlocks and list building is a little clunkier.
That said, I don't have a better solution in mind. I think this is the "least bad" option Mantic could take to get where they want to be. And overall, I do like the unlocking change.
I think Large-bodied hordes definitely needed a nerf coming into Third. They had a small footprint, and generally had very desirable stats (high Nerve, lots of attacks, bountiful Crushing Strength and usually good defense too), so you ended up with a very potent, very compact unit. Couple that with the old Horde unlocks and they were very strong in their own right and insanely desirable. Large-bodied unit would have different tactics than human-sized soldiers, and I do like that they get different supporting unlocks to kinda reflect that.
My Collection
... fortunately for me, my small collection doesn't care about either of the big changes impacting more serious Ogre lists! My collection sits a bit above 1000 points, about a 5% decrease from where they were at the end of Second Edition.
I do have an edition casualty. I did up a large two-headed ogre for the odd Nomagarok, a legendary ogre spell caster and mediocre combat guy. I haven't read the fluff, but am not seeing him here in the new army list. The mini is larger than a typical ogre, but not large enough to really be a monster or something... I'll retire him for now and see what the future brings.
My Warlord got a points decrease, but remains a strong, smashy leader. I'm actually quite impressed with the selection of Ogre heroes. If my collection grows at all, I'll definitely need to pick up some more heroes! The Sergeant has so many options, and the Berserker Bully just looks incredible to me.
My two hordes of Siege Breakers got some tweaks, but are still looking very strong to me! They lost their Thunderous Charge and a point of Crushing Strength (down to CS2 now), but gained Defense 5 and kept their Big Shield. They don't hit as hard any more, but are going to be quite dangerous to try and fight.
The three regiments of Slaaneshi-style Braves were the first to cross over into Kings of War. In Third they look largely same, but with a minor points decrease and Wild Charge 3, which I'm looking forward to seeing in action.
Wild Charge is neat, and I'm quite interested to see it in action. I have some wandering thoughts on the ability, but can't quite seem to nail them down succinctly right now. In short, I think it's going to make positioning way more interesting in games. I'm intrigued!
Irregular Units
More units are Irregular in Third; it seems to be Mantic's non-invasive way to try and guide the army metas a bit. A lot of ranged units received this status in Third, along with some unique but powerful units that were showing up in a lot of lists, like the Abyssal's Tortured Souls or the Varangur Fallen, or the Undead Wights (for me at least, not sure how popular they were elsewhere). The former "must-have" allied unit of Ogre Shooters is now similarly afflicted. My collection is not impacted.
List Building & Unlocks
List building has also changed a bit in Third, and is now a bit more complex. Gone is the slick, simple Regiment/Horde arrangement; it's gotten more granular, with the Large Infantry/Cavalry getting tweaked. Their Regiments no longer unlock things; only Hordes and Legions do.
So with the Large-bodied choices, Troop unlocks are a far harder to get. Hordes only get you two (Legions get you four). However, with each, you get TWO unlocks for any combination of Hero, Monster, Titan, or War Engine, where the more "regular" unlocking cavalry/infantry/heavy infantry units are limited to one (or one of each, with a Horde).
It's a weird arrangement.
Part of me just doesn't like it. A big personal selling point for me with Kings of War is the rules. There were balance concerns (as they are in any game), but the rules were always easy to read and understand. Now, unlocks are not as simple or straightforward as they were previously, and unlocks and list building is a little clunkier.
That said, I don't have a better solution in mind. I think this is the "least bad" option Mantic could take to get where they want to be. And overall, I do like the unlocking change.
I think Large-bodied hordes definitely needed a nerf coming into Third. They had a small footprint, and generally had very desirable stats (high Nerve, lots of attacks, bountiful Crushing Strength and usually good defense too), so you ended up with a very potent, very compact unit. Couple that with the old Horde unlocks and they were very strong in their own right and insanely desirable. Large-bodied unit would have different tactics than human-sized soldiers, and I do like that they get different supporting unlocks to kinda reflect that.
My Collection
... fortunately for me, my small collection doesn't care about either of the big changes impacting more serious Ogre lists! My collection sits a bit above 1000 points, about a 5% decrease from where they were at the end of Second Edition.
I do have an edition casualty. I did up a large two-headed ogre for the odd Nomagarok, a legendary ogre spell caster and mediocre combat guy. I haven't read the fluff, but am not seeing him here in the new army list. The mini is larger than a typical ogre, but not large enough to really be a monster or something... I'll retire him for now and see what the future brings.
My Warlord got a points decrease, but remains a strong, smashy leader. I'm actually quite impressed with the selection of Ogre heroes. If my collection grows at all, I'll definitely need to pick up some more heroes! The Sergeant has so many options, and the Berserker Bully just looks incredible to me.
My two hordes of Siege Breakers got some tweaks, but are still looking very strong to me! They lost their Thunderous Charge and a point of Crushing Strength (down to CS2 now), but gained Defense 5 and kept their Big Shield. They don't hit as hard any more, but are going to be quite dangerous to try and fight.
The three regiments of Slaaneshi-style Braves were the first to cross over into Kings of War. In Third they look largely same, but with a minor points decrease and Wild Charge 3, which I'm looking forward to seeing in action.
Wild Charge is neat, and I'm quite interested to see it in action. I have some wandering thoughts on the ability, but can't quite seem to nail them down succinctly right now. In short, I think it's going to make positioning way more interesting in games. I'm intrigued!
Tuesday, November 12, 2019
3rd Edition: Thoughts on Undead
Having finished my first read-through of the rules, I'm pretty pleased. The core of the game is still there haha! Some things are bit more complex now, but that is the nature of a beast of a game like this. The added complexity (things like the Devastated rule, and yielding individuals) I think are fine additions. Overall, I'm quite pleased!
While not the army I usually play, I have played a fair bit against the Undead. With the full KoM list is still forthcoming (though the Master Crafted teaser was great news!), I figured I'd start digging into the army lists and my collection with these spooky bois, and see how they fared with 3rd Edition...
I have a spreadsheet for my collections. Having updated it now with some new points values... *checks math* my Undead collection is roughly 15% cheaper now, weighing in at about 4,000 points. A points reduction lets me get more on the table, so so far, so good!
Zombies (& Ghouls)
Bringing the Zombies down to Defense 2+ was a brave design decision. In Second, they felt very "samey" with Ghouls where deciding if you wanted Shambling/Not was a big factor... with the ghouls loosing out most of the time. Now the zombies really feel like a mindless gang of low level Undead, and the Ghouls feel much more lively in relation. I really like these decisions! I think there are more meaningful decisions to be made now between these two choices in list building, and I think we'll see more Ghouls in lists online. I may even add some to my collection in 2020. Ghouls supporting Soul Reavers as a more mobile undead contingent does have some appeal...
Skeleton Warriors, Archers, Spearmen (& Revenants)
Skeleton Warriors are pretty generic. They are the bland, basic choice. Skeletons as a looked to have lost some Nerve, but overall look to be great basic picks when you just need bodies or unlocks.
The changes to Phalanx are significant, and welcome. It's minor, but I really like the extra attacks at the troop level. Not sure how often it will come up though! Still, I expect the changes will be enough to entice more players to take spears in their lists. I've got two hordes of Skeleton Spears waiting to be primed myself. I'll probably get on that come springtime - we've gotten some early snows in Wisconsin, and they're likely here to stay around for a while...
Archers are now irregular, which is an interesting change. The same change happened to my League's Halfling Archers previously, which I assumed was an army-specific nerf at the time. Now I'm thinking it may be a broader balance choice to de-emphasize shooting (a quick glance through the book and it looks like some ogres and naiads are now irregular as well, though at a glace most of the elf and dwarf shooters are still regular). This is a neat balance decision, and surprisingly simple.
I never had the models for Revenants, so I never ran any. In Third, they can no longer swap shields for big weapons, forcing them into more of an anchoring role, but they seem fantastic at this. I rather liked the weapon-swap options though, but think it's a case of models influencing the rules: Mantic's kit doesn't look to have any big weapon options, after all.
Soul Reavers
Wraiths & Wights
I like that Wraiths got Strider. They are incorporeal ghosts, after all! It's a nice buff to an already potent unit. I will likely try to squeeze in all three of my troops into lists going forward. They gained the Phantasm keyword, which is interesting too...
Overall, I'm bummed with the design direction of the Wights though. I really liked them as bigger, tankier skeletons. I backed Darkest Dungeon and played a lot back in the day, and liked the look of their big skeletons, and that how I saw the Wights as a unit. Ogres have skeletal structures too, and I liked the idea of raising bigger bodies as bigger skeletons.
I get that there wasn't as much space between Wights and the Zombie Trolls in Second Edition, but I would have rather seen the Trolls gain Regen and be Defense 4+ and keep the Wights as-is, and introduce a different phantasm unit to cover this design space. Alternatively, Fly could have been an optional upgrade. Shucks.
Additionally, Wights are now irregular. In Second Edition, I thought large infantry hordes were quite desirable as you got the unlocks without having a huge footprint, and most of the units were quite punchy, so you got a very compact unit and all these unlocks to play with. In Third, it looks like more large infantry is being declared irregular. As with the archers, it's a very slick fix to guide players into the desired meta.
From the hobby perspective, I'll likely retire my regiments, but my hordes could sure use a repaint. They were my first real attempts at multi-basing, and keeping their original bases was a big mistake. I can do better nowadays, and will try to get them done this winter.
Necromancer, Vampires, Revenant Kings and the Liche King
I like the points drop for the Necromancers. The Undead really need their surgers, so it was a bit rough that their necromancers were so pricey relative to the wizards of other armies. Knocking them down to 50 points is huge. Their vicious Zombie Aura looks neat as well. I think Necromancers will do quite well this addition.
The vampires lords and ladies got a mixed bag. Some slight nerfs (not as speedy, one less attack), but also a good points reduction, Mighty (letting them duke it out with entire units) and Duelist, making them character killers too. Super fluffy. I love it.
Revenant Kings lost their innate surge, which stinks, but can buy it back, and would be 25% less than they were in Second Edition. I love them as an "all-rounder" hero, and I think they'll be a go-to to start for Third.
I'm not stoked on the Liche King changes. I never liked their spelling here, but a kind of ascended undead with powerful spell-casting is such a trope of fantasy it's a shame to change it. Like I mentioned before, I like the design concept of a phantasm subgroup with the Undead, but I wish they added units instead of tweaking existing ones. Some kind of poltergeist; a flying support caster would have been interesting to play with (windblast shenanigans!); or a small flying vengeful spirit duelist spirit would be interesting too. I think adding a new heroic phantasm unit would have been the way to go.
Yikes. A lot of text!
Overall, I'm pretty happy with the Undead from what I'm reading. Most things are cheaper, and everything but the phantasm choices I'm pretty on board with. Wights being irregular hurts me a bit, since they comprised so much of my collection... but another block of Skeletons (or Revenants) and I should be worry-free with my unlocks for them in 3rd. Looking forward to seeing them in action!
While not the army I usually play, I have played a fair bit against the Undead. With the full KoM list is still forthcoming (though the Master Crafted teaser was great news!), I figured I'd start digging into the army lists and my collection with these spooky bois, and see how they fared with 3rd Edition...
I have a spreadsheet for my collections. Having updated it now with some new points values... *checks math* my Undead collection is roughly 15% cheaper now, weighing in at about 4,000 points. A points reduction lets me get more on the table, so so far, so good!
Zombies (& Ghouls)
Bringing the Zombies down to Defense 2+ was a brave design decision. In Second, they felt very "samey" with Ghouls where deciding if you wanted Shambling/Not was a big factor... with the ghouls loosing out most of the time. Now the zombies really feel like a mindless gang of low level Undead, and the Ghouls feel much more lively in relation. I really like these decisions! I think there are more meaningful decisions to be made now between these two choices in list building, and I think we'll see more Ghouls in lists online. I may even add some to my collection in 2020. Ghouls supporting Soul Reavers as a more mobile undead contingent does have some appeal...
Skeleton Warriors, Archers, Spearmen (& Revenants)
Skeleton Warriors are pretty generic. They are the bland, basic choice. Skeletons as a looked to have lost some Nerve, but overall look to be great basic picks when you just need bodies or unlocks.
The changes to Phalanx are significant, and welcome. It's minor, but I really like the extra attacks at the troop level. Not sure how often it will come up though! Still, I expect the changes will be enough to entice more players to take spears in their lists. I've got two hordes of Skeleton Spears waiting to be primed myself. I'll probably get on that come springtime - we've gotten some early snows in Wisconsin, and they're likely here to stay around for a while...
Archers are now irregular, which is an interesting change. The same change happened to my League's Halfling Archers previously, which I assumed was an army-specific nerf at the time. Now I'm thinking it may be a broader balance choice to de-emphasize shooting (a quick glance through the book and it looks like some ogres and naiads are now irregular as well, though at a glace most of the elf and dwarf shooters are still regular). This is a neat balance decision, and surprisingly simple.
I never had the models for Revenants, so I never ran any. In Third, they can no longer swap shields for big weapons, forcing them into more of an anchoring role, but they seem fantastic at this. I rather liked the weapon-swap options though, but think it's a case of models influencing the rules: Mantic's kit doesn't look to have any big weapon options, after all.
Soul Reavers
Soul Reavers still hit quite hard, and got a little points reduction. These will probably still hit the table regularly. I think a vampire elite supported by some sycophantic ghouls would be a neat little option now too. I have some Gothic-armored knights sitting around; I might add some cavalry come springtime.
I like that Wraiths got Strider. They are incorporeal ghosts, after all! It's a nice buff to an already potent unit. I will likely try to squeeze in all three of my troops into lists going forward. They gained the Phantasm keyword, which is interesting too...
Overall, I'm bummed with the design direction of the Wights though. I really liked them as bigger, tankier skeletons. I backed Darkest Dungeon and played a lot back in the day, and liked the look of their big skeletons, and that how I saw the Wights as a unit. Ogres have skeletal structures too, and I liked the idea of raising bigger bodies as bigger skeletons.
I get that there wasn't as much space between Wights and the Zombie Trolls in Second Edition, but I would have rather seen the Trolls gain Regen and be Defense 4+ and keep the Wights as-is, and introduce a different phantasm unit to cover this design space. Alternatively, Fly could have been an optional upgrade. Shucks.
Additionally, Wights are now irregular. In Second Edition, I thought large infantry hordes were quite desirable as you got the unlocks without having a huge footprint, and most of the units were quite punchy, so you got a very compact unit and all these unlocks to play with. In Third, it looks like more large infantry is being declared irregular. As with the archers, it's a very slick fix to guide players into the desired meta.
From the hobby perspective, I'll likely retire my regiments, but my hordes could sure use a repaint. They were my first real attempts at multi-basing, and keeping their original bases was a big mistake. I can do better nowadays, and will try to get them done this winter.
Necromancer, Vampires, Revenant Kings and the Liche King
I like the points drop for the Necromancers. The Undead really need their surgers, so it was a bit rough that their necromancers were so pricey relative to the wizards of other armies. Knocking them down to 50 points is huge. Their vicious Zombie Aura looks neat as well. I think Necromancers will do quite well this addition.
The vampires lords and ladies got a mixed bag. Some slight nerfs (not as speedy, one less attack), but also a good points reduction, Mighty (letting them duke it out with entire units) and Duelist, making them character killers too. Super fluffy. I love it.
Revenant Kings lost their innate surge, which stinks, but can buy it back, and would be 25% less than they were in Second Edition. I love them as an "all-rounder" hero, and I think they'll be a go-to to start for Third.
I'm not stoked on the Liche King changes. I never liked their spelling here, but a kind of ascended undead with powerful spell-casting is such a trope of fantasy it's a shame to change it. Like I mentioned before, I like the design concept of a phantasm subgroup with the Undead, but I wish they added units instead of tweaking existing ones. Some kind of poltergeist; a flying support caster would have been interesting to play with (windblast shenanigans!); or a small flying vengeful spirit duelist spirit would be interesting too. I think adding a new heroic phantasm unit would have been the way to go.
Yikes. A lot of text!
Overall, I'm pretty happy with the Undead from what I'm reading. Most things are cheaper, and everything but the phantasm choices I'm pretty on board with. Wights being irregular hurts me a bit, since they comprised so much of my collection... but another block of Skeletons (or Revenants) and I should be worry-free with my unlocks for them in 3rd. Looking forward to seeing them in action!
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