Thoughts on TVI Lists

I had some pushback from a reader of my battle reports for describing a game list of mine as "TVI Style". Normally I would not care too much; I don't particularly like these kind of discussions and usually don't find them very helpful. I will rarely run the same list twice here, so when I describe a list, I am not trying to be authoritative; rather I am trying to quickly convey something about my thinking for that list: what ideas I am looking to test; how I think it will play, etc. 

However, the pushback on this list came from one Randy Atchley, so I took it seriously. He played Tim Walker aka The Village Idiot (TVI) back in the day, and adopted the style himself for a time, and even went to the trouble to write the old original TVI Tactica that I reposted to this very blog. He would be what historians call a primary source - someone or something directly related to the topic by proximity and participation. With all of those credentials, I figured that it would be worth a post here to look at the criticism of what I called "TVI Style" and compare some lists.

Please note that the pictures are a bit abstract, generally zooming in on part of the deployment, and not covering the whole table, or even our whole side. I just want showcase the general line of battle for each list and explore very basically how it wants to operate. Also, these are meant to be from our perspective / side of the table, with our opponent's side upwards and out of frame, if that wasn't readily apparent.

TVI's Original List

The original TVI deployment, taken from the Tactica.

The list list that won the GT can be found here, and again this is from 2003 for a different game. The list has an infantry-focus. The larger, defensive Swordsmen blocks (Blue) would take the charge, and small infantry (Yellow) and cavalry (Red) units would retaliate, with the latter also screening as necessary. Heroes are accompanying the Blue units to provide buffs of all kinds, and the war machines would hit things from afar. In short, this list uses a combined arms approach to win fights and games.

My Test List

My TVI-style list with regiments.

I played one game in with the list in question, though I've used "TVI style" to describe a few lists now. The left flank in that game embodied what I was trying to do, and was deployed rather roughly like the picture above. The Blue units were regiments of Pikes or Def5 Foot Guard. The Yellow units were regiments of Pole-Arms or CS Foot Guard. The Grey squares were Ballistae, deployed with the line of battle in order to get line of sight. Blue should take the charges, Yellow should counter-attack. The Mounted Scouts in Red attempt to screen and disrupt the enemy advance to protect the main line. I thought this was a pretty TVI approach.

I will definitely concede some things though. Unlike the original, my units have looser roles and many units are interchangeable. I want the Blue units to take the hit, but anything can be sacrificed in a pinch, and with Bane-Chant, most anything can do ok hitting back. Mainly, this list is just a regimental checkerboard, hoping to win through attrition, which isn't much of a grandy strategy.

Nordberg

An example of the Nordberg List.

Sam Nordberg's list list and variations thereof are pretty common for Kingdoms of Men. Randy puts this forth as the closest thing to a TVI list "as it is designed to be charged." The Red blocks are the flying Generals, spread throughout the line early on to Inspire, and later to get behind enemy lines. The Pike regiments are Blue, as they are the things we'd want to be charged. The small Yellow units are Fanatics, ready to counter-attack against small threats, and the larger Yellow units being hordes of CS Foot Guard, ready and in reserve to attack larger threats, though they might also be deployed in the line too. 

The infantry focus, more dedicated unit roles, and counter-attacking aspects are definitely here, but this looks a bit odd. The smallest units are still Yellow, being supporting counter-attackers, but so are the largest units now. Many think of Kings of War as a "piece-trading" game, like chess or checkers, and the unit sizes used here embrace that thinking, with the units looking to do the most damage being biggest.

So, sure the Pikes can take a hit. But counter-attacking with hordes or Winged Beasts doesn't really fit the "combined arms" feel the original list has. Where is the cavalry? The war engines? While this is a powerful list for sure, merely having things "designed to the charged" doesn't seem good enough to call something a TVI list. TVI doesn't own the "hammer and anvil" concept.

Randy's Theoretical KoW TVI

Theoretical TVI list by Randy. Well, about 2/3rds of it.

Fortunately for the discussion, Randy did offer up his take on a more traditional TVI list for Kings of War: 3 Hordes of Pikemen (Blue); 3 Cannons (Grey); 3 Troops of Knights (red); 3 troops of Fanatics (Yellow); Captain on Horse; ASB on Horse with Lute; Wizard on Horse with Inspiring Talisman and Lightning Bolt 3. It's got 15 Drops, but only 18 US. However the bulk of the US are the three hordes of Pikemen, which are regarded as pretty formidable. Overall, I had to agree; I did like this better as a TVI-inspired list, in many respects. 

Against my test-list, having distinct battle groups felt better. It knows it wants to contest a few major things, and seeks to do that. With running Roman/Byzantine inspired stuff, I had not looked at Cannons much but sheesh, three should do some work against tall, scary monsters I think, and they are the better war machine here. This list looks far more focused than the one I tested out. 

Against the Nordberg, this feels like more of an Old World combined arms TVI list. The the monster fliers and punchy hordes have been dropped in favor of the old trifecta of cannon, cavalry, and infantry. The Blue defenders are buffed into Hordes now, for the sake of survivability, but overall, this definitely looks more similar to the original TVI list.

Against itself, this certainly looks more reminiscent of the old list, but I'm guessing there is a reason Randy isn't running it already! There is definitely some streamlining that can be done, and it seems a bit light on the counter-attack for the needs of this new game. But this is armchair quarterbacking - this does seem like a good jumping off point for faithfully recreating the original list.

I still don't like getting snared down in these kind of list discussions, but I think this one at least was at least a little more constructive than they usually are. I don't think any of these can realistically claim to be "TVI for KoW," though that was never my goal.

To quickly revisit some of my thoughts on TVI, the original list and approach was for an entirely different game, and relied on some odd special rules in order to work and breaking several aspects of the game at the time. We just can't duplicate that effectively in Kings of War.

Each of the three "successor" lists draws on an aspect of TVI's old list; be it the combined arms approach; the defensive mindset; or even just being a more earnest copy of the old list in this new game. These sorts of takeaways are what I am after for my testing though, and it was neat to explore some possible lessons here, especially those drawn from other folks like Randy. This was neat, but I will try to be a bit more precise with my list descriptions in my future battle reports!